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Need advice/help.
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Post Need advice/help. 
SO my wife and I were driving my jeep with 350 vortec back from Maryland about a month ago and it started cutting out. After it finally cut out bad enough to make me pull over I found that the original harness that I had made about 8-9 years ago had been compromised. I would move the harness around to find where the problem was while listening to the engine and found that many of the soldered joints had come apart, some of which were joined with misc. resistors.

I called the guy, and told him what had happened. I asked him if he knew how to do the 411 swap and he said he could do that and the repair/program for $220. Fine. I do not know what the expectency of a soldered joint is expected to be, but these were totally corroded/oxidized, not bent or broken. And even though I felt that it was craftmansship issue, I agreed to pay feeling that it was a fair price. He said he could give me this price because I was a returning customer and it was a harness taht they built. Plus they programmed the computer originally.

Next time I called the business the price swelled to $300, which still seemed fair, but he could not explain why the price went up $80 from what we had already agreed.

Anyway, I had hmi program out any emissions that I didnt need. I reinstalled the harness, but asked him why there was still a plug for the EGR and if it was plugged in (to avoid having a plug hanging) would it matter? (important later) He said no so I finished and started it up. It revved up to 2200rps and stayed there for a few minutes, then started surging (1200rpm-2800rpm) like it was searching for idle. He said just do a crank relearn.

So, as it was undriveable, i towed it to a shop and had them do a crank relearn which did nothing.

Called him back and he said that he wanted to try and see if running 12v power to the camshaft sensor would work but it appears it wasnt and that I would have to rewire a wire from pin 39 to the "C" slot on the cam sensor plug. Very annoyed, I got a ride back to my house to get tools to do what he had suggested. Luckily he had included a pin with wire attached that when questioned, was originally optional if I wanted to run a 411 controlled electric fan. Either way thank God it was there.

I did the repair and still no change.

Other tests with the SOLUS scanner revealed that the 3-5-7 injectors being shut off yielded no change to how the engine was running. Also the bank 2 was showing lean on the O2 data.

I towed it back home to work on it some more as the shop closed. I tested the voltage to the injectors with key on and while cranking. Everythign checked out. I asked if he was sure that the egr wasnt connected to anything, and he said disconnect it just to see.


Magic. The vehicle calmed down and idled down between 600-700 RPM. The racing RPM's were directly related to this being plugged in even though it wasn't supposed to be connected to anything...

Now I took it for a spin and it was hesitating and bogging down but at least I could drive it.

The guys latest suggestions are to get a new computer and get a tuner software so we can diagnose it further.


So I guess my point is- is what is to be expected from a business? I ordered a harness so I could hook up a few wires and go. Now $600 into trying to make this work (300 for work, and 300 for trying to get it to work properly), the guy says well maybe i should just go out and buy some $800 software and a new computer?! What does he think this is? If I opted to do that, he wouldn't even be in the picture. I would have saved all the shipping charges and probably would have been done sooner then the month it took me to get all this done.

The guy charged more than he said.
The project took him a week longer than was projected.
Had to harass the guy to get him to get it out on time.
The product didn't perform properly.
I was left running all over to get obscure connectors and trying to take this apart to fix it.
Now I am expected to drop another $1000 on a new pcm and software?

WHat is this guy thinking? Is it just me?

I am pissed off and frustrated at all of this. I could potentially dispute the credit charge for services not renedered. But this would obviously close off all ties with this guy. I can competently rewire the engine harness, but never did it as the downtime would be too long. In retrospect maybe it wouldn't have been as long. Does anyone else feel that i norder to do something right you need to do it yourself?

Anyone have any suggestions on what I could do next? the harness appears to work and I cannot afford to just go out and software at this point. Getting a new PCM I could do, but is that really goign to solve the problem with the injectors? Throwing a bunch of parts never really solved anything for me. i feel that this is what this guy wants me to do.

On another note, does anyone have a good supplier that would make rewiring the harness in the future affordable? Would you buy lengths of every color coded wire that you are replacing? or would you mark the wires another way and just buy big spools of basic colors? What about gettign all the connectors? All electronics and mouser are decent suppliers.

Sorry for the rant, just needed to vent and I value the thoughts of the guys on this board. Thanks for reading and responding if you decide to do so.

Matt

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i have always found doing it myself not only broadens my knowledge, but gives me more satisfaction as well as ease of troubleshooting because i know EXACTLY what has been done to it. my 97 has only been in the shop for warranty work, after that - all me.

if you have the harness there, with the pinouts from lextech, your only looking at a few hours of time to do it right.

soldered joints are very strong, and to weatherproof them, i have always used heat shrink tube and RTV and i have never had any failures, even on the mud bogger i built to go under water with a snorkel.

had it been my shop, and one of my customers was having an issue, it would have been free to figure out the problem, if they wanted to upgrade to something better like the 411, the only thing i would charge them is a bit of labor - like maybe 2 hours, just for the simple fact that what i did developed an issue, at that point you need to do right by the customer - even if it means taking a loss. the gains by doing right by your customers and repeat and referral business far outweigh the loss one would have at the time of the fix.

todays economy kinda makes it hard because everybody is struggling with paying bills, but to be honest, i would rather have to close shop being well known for quality and taking care of people than making sure my bills were paid - but then again, if it were well known that a place takes care of people and does right by them if something happens, the customer base would be enough to stay in business and not have to worry about bills.......

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Take his red swingline stapler and burn the shop down.

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Me personally, I would stop payment. He did not do what he said he would do and the $80 increase should have covered the call back anyway, not an additional 300. IMO

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pharmd wrote:
I could potentially dispute the credit charge for services not renedered. But this would obviously close off all ties with this guy.


Why would it matter if you closed the door to incompetence? Tell him you aren't satisfied with his product and demand a refund, and send him his work back. Dispute the charge if he even acts like he is refusing. That 600 bucks would go a long ways towards EFI Live.

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At this point with the quality of his work would you use his services again?

I would make a trip to the shop & talk face to face with him, I would tell him if he cant fix it correctly without additional dollars your not going to pay, & then I would dispute the charges. Give him a chance to make it right with knowing that your upset.

Boosted

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Hey guys,

Thanks for the responses. This has been really bothering me all day at work.

Speeder/Boosted-Z71:

I have a few things stacked against me:

1. This was mail order from San Antonio, TX to Massachusetts, so I wish I could go give this guy some face time.
2. I would return the goods, but I only got charged for labor and maybe some misc wiring/connectors. So, I cannot effectively return those. There is no way he is going to reimburse me, and I could dispute the $300 that he charged me. But the towing and shop expenses are a total loss. (Directly caused by him).


ThunderTT: I agree with your stance on customer service. But I don't even think I am asking him to bend over backwards for me. I think him telling me to go out and buy the software and pcm is a big FU to me. Why stop there, just go out and get a whole new jeep....

On the quality, now that my anger has stirred up old memories. I remember my diagnostic port stopped working about 4 years ago. I was on the phone with this guy for ever and he was telling me to do all kinds of stuff. He eventually said its definately a ground problem. Well I had ground to bare metal when I grounded and they were all testing positive. It ended up being a corroded connection that had oxidized and broken. There is definately a quality issue here that is coming back to me as I have forgotton some of the small things.

RStahoe:

I am goin to cancel payment when I get home.

Daddy_Dandy:

If only.......


Anyways, I thought it was interesting that he changed the price after I had already mailed out my harness, so I didn't really have a choice on the price. At least not in the name of getting this done in a timely manner. He doesn't act like a dick on the phone, but I am rarely satisfied when I hang up after talking to him. It usually end with a new list of diagnostic hoops I have to jump through.

I don't think I ever mentioned it, but other than the cutting out because of the wiring, everything ran fine. Last fall I went through a million things and replaced all the sensors to try and solve a pinging issue. This is even documented on this board. It ended up being an intake gasket. I mention this because he is telling me that I need to check all the sensors, and run all these tests. Everything in question was replaced less than a year ago. Why would the work he did (if correct) make all my sensors go bad all of a sudden?

I am going to stop payment. But unfortunately, I do not have a reliable beater for long term use. The issue is definately time sensitive. If I can get the charge refunded, I would have someone here program it for me. I should have went with my 1st insticts and have done this from the start.

Anyone that builds or has built these harnesses new have some suggestions on where to begin on building a completely new harness?

I have the right crimping tool from blupoint to crimp these terminals correctly. I also have alot of the picks needed to manipulate the gm connectors. I guess the actual wire is where I am not sure which way I should go. Is there some way I could mark up the wire, or print on it what the wire is for like some of the premade harnesses? I am sure I could get creative with tape, but that will only go so far. Any ideas?

I think I would do the layout with some string 1st. Then pin the string up and replace the string with wire 1 piece at a time.

My splices are like this (though I would try to have as few as possible):

Twist a loop in one stripped wire. Stick the other wire through the loop and twist it into its own loop like how a chain hooks together. I twist it farily tight then solder. Before I shrink my cover on, I fill the solder area and any exposed copper with dialectic grease and shrink it down tight. Any excess comes out the ends as it shrinks down tight.

Does anyone see anything wrong with this procedure?

Anyways thanks for the help. I appretiate you listening to my ranting.

Matt

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that really sucks man, hate hearing about issues like this - and yes, telling you to get more stuff IS a big FU.......

didnt even think you were getting that stuff done cross country, thought it was local - that makes it that much worse, no soldered joint should ever corrode and/or break.

i can go to wires i did 20 years ago on alarms and what not, pull them out and hang by them and never even think about worrying if they will break, thats just poor quality - hell, butt connectors dont even do that.

maybe somebody here is local to you and can give you a hand trying to get it sorted - you have the parts all there except the 411, all you need is that (cheap at a bone yard, and if not we can find one cheap) and a few hours - not a week - and you will be set.

tuning software can come later, or im sure there is someone close that could throw a tune your way, or even a mail order tune - either way, i think you would be better off doing it yourself, and there is not an issue that you could come across that someone here has not already dealt with - i really dont think its possible, at least with the engine - the Jeep, your on your own Cool

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Charge disputed successfully. What a relief. Now what to do next...

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What to do next is start giving the guy free advertising. I'd also suggest trying to locate a new wiring harness to modify for the 411 computer, because trying to fix the one you have... if the guy's quality isn't up to snuff there's no telling what kind of other problems are in there. I'd not trust that harness at all. Get an unsullied harness from the boneyard, make the day's worth of mods needed to run the 411, then install and tune. EFI Live is expensive but very worth the money. Perhaps if someone local to you has EFI Live that you get on well with you can buy a license from them and have them set your computer up. Licenses are about 100 bucks.

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As always, I am always down to the wire.

I am very close to buying EFI live. I have the credit card in one hand and phone in the other. But, I am trying to do something that gets me up in running quickly. Getting EFIlive is a good long term solution but will take a week to get then I have to learn it etc.

Unfortunately, after posting around on a few boards, there doesn't seem to be anyone in the area interested in doing any tuning for me.

Anyway, I think I am goign to get a new PCM tune to get me up and running. Then get the efilive after.

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Something to think about. Had you done the EFI Live/mod your own harness to begin with, and taken the week you expected to do it, you'd have been up and running long ago. Instead you used contractors, and are still walking. Now you sit, prepared to go the EFI Live/mod your own harness and take a week doing it, but are contemplating using a contractor. Again.

Of course, it's up to you how you do this.

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Speeder:

You are right. I guess I just have to spend the money. I am looking at the harness now with Lextech's pinout diagram testing for continuity. I am going through it myself. I guess I am just in a panic because the beater is dying and I do not want to be left with no transportation.

So I will update the post as I find out more. On the plus side, I just got all my nice new relays and relay housings from All Electronics. Need those for a proper looking installation.

What have you guys done when you find you have to replace a wire in a harness but it is an obscure color like grey/green. I would love to get a ton of terminals and wire and just re-run the whole harness, but I am unsure what to do to label the wires. how do the big harness companies do it? Do they have designations printed on while it is manufactured?

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the good wire distributors that make harnesses will have the wire printed, either when manufactured or at a later time.

if you have to replace an odd wire and cant get the correct colored wire - say a solid color with a stripe or dashes, replace with what you can get and make a note in the wire diagram for future reference.

an option to get you running would be to make a splice or splices to get the harness in good working order, then at your own pace - pick up another harness and modify that for your vehicle, once complete - just swap the harness.

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If you're concerned about losing track of the wire because you changed color, you can always tape the old wire to the new one. A short wrap of electrical tape every 6 inches would do it. If you start with a good harness to begin with though, it's usually not a problem. If you feel the need to label, I have seen clear vinyl tape and tape a hand written tag to it.

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Ok,

So if I want to disconnect the following, please correct the steps I list if they are wrong:

1. EGR solenoid.
-Pink- cut back to 12v sensor power splice
-Black- cut back to sensor ground splice
-Brown- ELiminate EGR position sensor wire from pinout
-Grey-Cut back to 5v ref voltage splice
-Grey2- Eliminate pin in pcm for EGR soleniod control.

2.Canister Purge SOlenoid
-white- remove purge valve pin from pcm
-pink- cut back to 12v sensor power splice

-Do I need to remove this after I eliminate the wiring? And is there some block off plate to do so?
-Can I remove this without adverse effects?

3. PCV valve assembly.

-Is this setup necessary?
-WHat do I need to do to block it off or plug it so it has no adverse effects?

Thanks for the help thus far. Now that I am going through the harness, I have to admit I am really enjoying it. I guess this is what the whole hobby is about. Please keep swingign by as I will need more help from time to time as I am sure more questions will pop up.

Matt

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Well I got this running.

I drove it around a bit, 30 min or so. I was sitting in my driveway letting it run and it just died and wouldn't start back up. I let it sit after messing around with it, and then it started back up. I took it on another drive about 10 minutes from my house, shut it off to get something to eat. When I got back it would not start.


Now, a few days later it will not start at all. It seems that the computer is losing voltage while cranking.

So I hooked up a bettery charger set to start, and still no luck.

Any ideas?

Oh yeah, when I am done cranking, I can hear the injectors recharge when I let off the key.

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pharmd wrote:
Well I got this running.

I drove it around a bit, 30 min or so. I was sitting in my driveway letting it run and it just died and wouldn't start back up. I let it sit after messing around with it, and then it started back up. I took it on another drive about 10 minutes from my house, shut it off to get something to eat. When I got back it would not start.


Now, a few days later it will not start at all. It seems that the computer is losing voltage while cranking.

So I hooked up a bettery charger set to start, and still no luck.

Any ideas?

Oh yeah, when I am done cranking, I can hear the injectors recharge when I let off the key.


Injectors charge up? meaning fuel pump running I guess?
What is your fuel pressure with key on?
Might invest in an 800 cca battery if you think the battery is not up to par.

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I have an optima yellow top for a bettery.

Last time I checked the fuel psi, is was 58psi.

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What I meant was to eliminate the fuel pressure out of the equation.

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