In the old days for a situation like yours
Kendall Oil made a racing oil called Nitro 70 (straight 70 weight oil)
Made for Alky and Nitro engines
It's still available under a different name

http://www.engineproparts.com/BradPenn.html

Add a couple of cans of STP to the Nitro 70 and see if you get oil pressure

Speeder wrote:

The engine was designed for a lighter oil 245,000 miles ago. I think it can handle something a little thicker now. The parts that require the thinner oil due to tight tolerances are the bearings. Everything else just needs something that is slippery and will flow. A thicker oil would make it more likely that the hard parts would live, and the only part that would have trouble with it would be the oil pump since it would be harder to pump a thicker oil, and even then the oil isn't going to be that much thicker. It's not like going thicker would be like switching from veggie oil to mollasses.

Yeah, guess you're right. It's kind of hard to grasp how w50 vs w30 behaves internally when all you see is higher psi.

Fluid dynamics are different but to what extent?

Guess the solution is:

1) Bump the oil up to 15w-50
2) Install a high-volume oil pump if 15w-50 is still not enough.


And keep the revs low.

A straight 30 weight might do the trick, or maybe a 15W40 load of Rotella. Definitely time to start driving like the mortals though, until rebuild time.

I would also try an oil additive called Auto-RX, which basically cleans out your engine from any sludge you might have. There is a ton of info on this product at bobistheoilguy.com

Then I might add some Valvoline oil additive (in gold or silver small bottle) it raises the viscosity a ton; even with just half of the bottle added to my crank case pressure was up a bunch- and mileage went down actually. It is a very good additive with alot of moly in it, and you can raise vic of oil gradually by how much you add to your existing oil.

On the topic of low oil pressure.

I've let my oil level go too low.
Under hard acceleration I saw my oil pressure go to 0 psi momentarily.
It came back up as soon as I let go.

Pure negligence on my part.

My question is, if there's any damage, where's it more likely to be?

Rod bearings, mains... ?


Truck has 100k miles
Mobile-1 5w-30

Any journal bearing needing PSI/GPH to 'float' it from going metal to metal.

Mains and rod bearings are my guesses.

Cylinders, if in good enough shape will have reserve in the cylinder
cross hatch valleys and piston oil rings.

Valves will have enough for this instance and doesn't have the pressures
that main/rods do.

Ditto tappets & cam.

Why I always use molyb on my engines right after breaking them in (only
a few minutes breaks in the cylinders and then a few hundred miles for
the rest of the engine). Molyb will plate and if it should ever go metal to
metal, molyb on molyb, which has one of the losest co-efficient of friction
available.

Also depends on the quality of oil and it's condition. Film strength from
the get go and how well it's additive package has lasted (how many miles
on that charge and how hard has it worked, etc).

Never really know if there was damage, unless tear it down to inspect.

Thanks Big-Ben.

I'm a little in denial and want to believe it didn't get damaged. It's not knocking now and I don't know if it's worth the trouble to open it since I'm eventually going to put something else in there. (I blame James for that.... )
And if there is damage, it's probably going to get worst right?

Ben,
What's the product you use for Molyb. And how much do you use?

If I understand you only use it for a few hundred miles and then you flush it?

Man I just gave myself extra work I didn't have time for.

I really appreciate any input you have to offer.

Discovered Molybdenum disulfide back around late 60's/early 70's
while designing military/NASA stuff. Spec'ed out for all things, even
as the 'dry lube' (you know it's 'out there' when spec says zero
gravity). Tungsten disulfide is another, newer, dry lube that 'coats',
not plate. Tungsten is easily scraped off, while molyb is 'plated' to
the metal.

Asked one of the physicists and he had to look it up to confirm his
memory. EXTREMELY expensive back then and some times couldn't
get it, so used our military priority POs...of course only for govmnt
use....but one must have lots of stock, right ?

Tungsten is tough to get onto ICE innards, while Molybdenum can
be added to engine oil. It is a solid and needs to either be extremely
fine in particle size, or in a liquid form. Molybdenum naturally bonds
to metal. Molyb is a tougher coating than Tungsten. I had Speeder
research one supplier out in his neck of the woods. Have some potentially
patentable usages for that stuff. The stuff I bought is made to around
2 microns or less in size. 'BEST' engine oil filters down to around 5-7 microns,
IIRC.

Molyb is what makes front wheel drive CV's last so long. In the early
days, they died much sooner.

You shooters out there know all about Molyb both for the slugs and barrels

I've seen small, high rev'ing ICE's temp gauage drop 5*-7* F after just
adding molyb additive. In only 10-12 miles. V8's don't show as much
as there are more things going on and the lessened friction lost in the
noise.

Since plated, losing liquid/grease lube will have it go metal to metal,
but molyb on molyb, which is extremely low friction. Gouging is what
you don't want (welding of the metals).

The place I used to buy from was in Calif and they went out of biz.
Father died (inventor), Daughter ran it for a while, then her brother
who then decided seminary school, so she got it back, but didn't want
to, so tried to sell it off. Very preditory folks tried and failed to buy
it, so she shut it down. I bought hundreds of bucks worth and is my
life time supply, which isn't going to make it...good thing that I'm
living longer than expected...

Only need about 8oz per 5 quarts of engine oil. I used 16oz for my
7.4L after breaking it in.

Haven't looked for a new supplier, but now that you have reminded
me...gotta add that to the list that is way toooooooo looooooooong...
Careful and make sure to check their claimed particle size. If it's
bigger than 5-7 microns, it will get filtered out. Why some have formulated
liquid and when I looked at them, too early and some problems with
acidic reactions of some sort (didn't go any further to investigate).

I break in my ICEs as in the post a few weeks ago. Then after about
10 minutes of running 'hard', but not WOT or under large loads. I add
Molybdenum Sulfide to the dino oil. Then around 500 miles flush and
use synthetic (Mobil 1) and molyb additive.

Why some have asked how come my dash gauages show such high
engine oil PSI. Largely due to both my break in procedure and Molyb
A bit on the low side pictured, as it used to go past 80PSI and hang at aroung
47-50PSI at idle and in need of an oil/filter change. Plus it's at just
over 156K with some tough towing miles, so it's getting old.



Once it has plated, it doesn't ever need another treatment...except
for extreme pressure spots. Like the top of the cylinder next to
the head. It does get scraped off over time. So I re-treat every 20K-40K
or so miles...depends on which car/engine. The Z got it more often, as
am a boy racer in that more/most all times...

I only use molybdenum disulfide filled grease. Mainly high temp
disc brake grease filled with molyb. On everything. Bought a big
plastic jug, about 1 gallon, of Sta-Lube High Temp Disc brake
lube. Load my grease guns with the stuff.

Wonderful stuff for diff's (open, not for anything with a clutch) and
manual trannies. Anything with a clutch will ruin it, as it's too slippery
and the clutches will have next to no friction.

NOTE that this stuff leaves nasty, permeate grease stains on clothing...

If you find some sites, please link them here or start another thread.

-old Ben

PS...always wanted to coat the entire innards of one of my 'built'
ICE's, but never found anyone willing to do that. Tungsten Disulfide
is a 'cold' process and like said, asked Speeder to check out that
place in Tulsa. Way cool to have an ICE with almost no friction
from it's moving parts sliding on each other... Around that time, 'hard
chrome' was also touted as a friction reducer, but that is even more
expensive and harder to work. Harley had an engine hard chromed
and never heard back on how that went.

Well.... That's not the answer I was looking for... But definitely the answer to expect from old-Ben.

Ok we'll start a new tread on molyb.

By the way, I had a 1976 Moto Ski Futura 440 that had chrome cylinders. It was high performance for it's time but the chrome would flake off...

CrazyHoe wrote:

snip...

What's the product you use for Molyb. And how much do you use?

If I understand you only use it for a few hundred miles and then you flush it?

Man I just gave myself extra work I didn't have time for.

I really appreciate any input you have to offer.

Can't remember the name of the company, nor it's 'brand', but not material
as they are out of biz decades ago. Looked a few times, but most of the
sources found sounded too much like snake oil pitches and I 'had' a few
gallons of the stuff in my stock back then. Kills me that nephew 'gave' a
couple of gallons (or more) to his buddies after being shown my stash.

There were only two sources with military approval and can't remember
the other one (they were not as good, IIRC...both to deal with and their
product). Processing it down to 1-2 microns was pretty high science back
then. Wonder/hope that material science is better today. Why laugh when
hear folks still pitching Teflon (PTFE...Slick 50), as it is a plastic and has
a higher rate of expansion than molyb. It also starts out bigger in particle
size, so usage in an engine will have it filtered out quickly and it will clump
to potentially plug engine oil galleries.

It plates out of the engine oil and just change the oil as usual. Since plated,
it stays on the parts touched by engine oil.

I'll see if you made up a new thread and respond/comment over there.

Note said 'hard chrome' and the specific process was by 'Electrolize' or
some such company/brand name. That was their claim, as their's didn't
flake off easily.

Plus all hard chrome has 'some' surface cracks, which acts like the cross
hatch grind as the final step on engine cylinder work. Those cracks act like
the valleys of the cross hatch to hold lube to be wiped over the high spots
by the piston rings.

The material read back then theorized that an iron block best as it
won't have the flexing that those cycle engines. Where Harley took up
the challenge and made up some custom proto's that I've never heard
what happened.

Still cheaper to use molybdenum disulfide and it has a lower co-efficient of
friction....but....hard chrome is better at one spot and that is at the top of
the cylinder. Molybdenum will wear off and hard chrome was shown to last
longer there in the test data I saw back then.

Bent1 wrote:

Note said 'hard chrome' and the specific process was by 'Electrolize' or
some such company/brand name. That was their claim, as their's didn't
flake off easily.

Plus all hard chrome has 'some' surface cracks, which acts like the cross
hatch grind as the final step on engine cylinder work. Those cracks act like
the valleys of the cross hatch to hold lube to be wiped over the high spots
by the piston rings.

I read it alright, I just can't imagine how the hell they machine that!!!

This was before affordable CNC and what CNC there was, was punch
tape driven.

Most machine shops were still in the hand crank era.

My guess is that they jigged based on the crank journals to establish
that center line for parallelism and perpendicularity to the bed. With
the bed long travel parallel to the crank center line.

It would be able to rotate on that center line axis keeping the cylinders
square to that center line.

Establish the deck square to the crank center line and use that to index
the stop for the cylinder grinding.

Index each cylinder down that center line and the grinding head would
be indexed to be square and parallel to the bed.

Then choice of grinder to the correct dia (bad) or have it on a motorized
mini bed that will rotate it to the cylinder bore. Rough dia down to finished
dia.

To reduce tool wear and therefore necessitate regauging for the correct
cylinder dia, use diamond grinder with lots of cutting fluid flow.

Of course they also had to do this before plating, as the rare cylinder
dia too small. Then how much and still strong enough and then how
much chrome thickness needed (min).

All of this flashed back when signed off on the new 5 axis bed CNC
mill for my sunk works at SunLabs. Wow, this thing could do
all that and more accurate to boot. That bed was rated for 500lbs, IIRC.
The tooling almost as much as the machine and most expensive that
powered multi axis tool holder.

Why just plating it with a 'better' material than chrome much cheaper.

The 'new' process to plate aluminum block cylinders is similar from the
articles I've read in the last decade or so. Started with how MB's secret
was in how they machined aluminum cylinders after they treated it to
produce carbide particles on the cylinder wall surface. The machining
tool edge angle (both angle held to and the angle ground onto the tool)
was very important. The cut left most of the surface carbide particles
and then a secondary/tertiary process to then 'lay down' those particles
to form a hard carbide surface on an aluminum block cylinder wall where
the norm was to use cast iron or steel liners in alu blocks.

Today they have the alloy in a crucible that has inductive heating and/or
plasma to vaporize and then condense onto the aluminum cylinder walls.
Want to find more details and you've just reminded me of that...

So I tore into the bottom end Friday night and have been digging around in there all weekend. I'll post some details and pics later, but rod and main bearings did show appreciable wear. Plasti-gauge, the only feasible way to do this with the engine still in the truck although not the most precise, revealed they were still within spec, but nonetheless unacceptable due to some embedded debris and also several which were starting to show copper. Crankshaft journals look excellent though (especially for 246,000 hard miles), with no damage. Inside of the engine is ultra-clean... Mobil 1 since new and changed on a regular basis. The stuff WORKS, plain and simple. I credit that oil in large part for this engine surviving as much as it has.

So far I've put in new rod bearings (standard size) and checked the clearances. The new bearings did tighten the clearances in several rods, so that's good. Will be putting in main bearings probably tomorrow. Have not pulled those yet to see what they look like, but I'm expecting a good amount of wear just like the rod bearings showed. Very happy with what I'm seeing, actually -- not as bad as I thought it would be. Still have quite a bit to do in there, but I will update more later. I swear this engine has 9 lives... looks like it's getting ready to start #4.

I remember a long time ago with small blocks the oil holes in the pushrods and rocker arms would wear and oil pressure would drop . This was on high mileage cars in the late 70's .The holes in the ends of the pushrods and the holes in the rockers would sort of flake off around the edges making the hole seem bigger . The hole in the rocker is timed so oil doesn't blow out all the time or you'd have no oil pressure . Thats why you need to run the restrictors in a solid cam / roller rocker application . I've had it once pump a 10 qt pan dry after 45 secs of WOT . The oil pressure went to 0 . Just a thought .

Just to provide some closure to this thread, I decided to go ahead and pull the engine. Am just going to install a reman long block and let this engine sit in my garage for a while. The new engine is stock, but I will be transferring over my roller rockers and will add a new single roller timing chain. Am also looking at headers while I have it all apart (see JBA the header thread). The new engine is .030 over and is 4-bolt mains instead of 2 bolt. These are the only differences from perfectly stock besides the aforementioned valvetrain parts.

The original engine will NOT be turned in for core, it will be rebuilt (by me) into a stroker, at some point, complete with Marine intake, 411, and every other trick this forum has come up with I need to be able to drive it n the meantime though, so in goes this ATK. I've used their engines before and was impressed, so we will see. The original engine looks awesome inside, but the bearings have been taking a beating and the old damage from the supercharger days to the pistons can no longer be patched up. No more denial, just going to pull it.

Thanks for all the opinions expressed in this thread, as I learned a lot from the discussion of the subject.