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trans fluid temp
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Post Re: max safe temp? 
[/quote]thanks, I have a weak TCC and that coupled with the trans rebuild that i did causes the temp to rise when goin up long steep grades. The trans wants to hold the clutch, which is great cause i've got the power for it, but the TCC cant hack it and slips. need a stronger.
Highest temp I've seen though is about 200 and then it drops back down.[/quote]



Even if someone "rebuilt the transmission" there are certain areas overlooked in the 4L60e transmission that definately lead to the TCC to overheat and burn up. 1 is selecting the wrong style material in the TC. There are certain years the TC material in the 60e's that are not interchangeable I promise! There are common valves and valve bores in the valve body and in the pump that wear out and cause AFL Fluid loss which causes things internally to slip and create more heat. You could buy a TCC solenoid snout and the sonnax updated tcc apply valve which is cheap and can be done from the pan and see if this helps the problem. if the converter is too far gone you can take off the inspection cover and see if the TC has changed colors form heat.
I personally would recommend all the sonnax updated parts you can get ahold of and/or install a reman valve body from VBX to restore more of the hydraulic integrity back to the trans to prevent anymore heat and slipping parts before spending all the money on synthetic oil just yet if you have issues with internal wear since oil wont fix metal.

Do a search on "Sonnax 4L60e" and you will eventually find some really great information by those guys that will provide detailed information about all the common problems found with these trans. They specialize in fixing the flaws that OEM doesn't with better parts and the information of why xxxx happens.
Good Luck!
Robby

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I've had my synthetic oil over 260oF (pinned the gauge) for short periods.


I should clarify so I don't lead people in the wrong direction. I measure the trans fluid temp after the converter before any coolers. I would never run the oil at that temperature in the pan (or from the PCM sensor location).

For the type of pulling I do, I'm concerned with the maximum oil temperature so it doesn't overheat and break down. In the early 90's GM recommended changing to synthetic oil to put a bandage on their weak and failing MD8 (4L60) transmissions. It worked for the most part. The higher temperature ratings allowed the trans. to survive longer. Unlike synthetic motor oil, I don't think synthetic transmission oil has extra lubrication properties that offer more slip otherwise; it wouldn't be able to display compatibility labels for most car manufacturers.

In my opinion, synthetic transmission oil has a much better temperature index not lubrication properties.

My 2 cents Smile

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NU72 wrote:
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I've had my synthetic oil over 260oF (pinned the gauge) for short periods.


I should clarify so I don't lead people in the wrong direction. I measure the trans fluid temp after the converter before any coolers. I would never run the oil at that temperature in the pan (or from the PCM sensor location).

For the type of pulling I do, I'm concerned with the maximum oil temperature so it doesn't overheat and break down. In the early 90's GM recommended changing to synthetic oil to put a bandage on their weak and failing MD8 (4L60) transmissions. It worked for the most part. The higher temperature ratings allowed the trans. to survive longer. Unlike synthetic motor oil, I don't think synthetic transmission oil has extra lubrication properties that offer more slip otherwise; it wouldn't be able to display compatibility labels for most car manufacturers.

In my opinion, synthetic transmission oil has a much better temperature index not lubrication properties.

My 2 cents Smile


having more lubrication properties was my main concern about synthetic trans fluid, i really didn't want to put something in my trans that was going to promote or encourage slip "smoother shifts".

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Post Dextron-III + Lubegard red 
JR96CK wrote:
I personally recommend against synth. in an automatic, especially if you have gone through and done an HD rebuild with any Kevlar frictions materials. This gets REAL important if your TCC material is Kevlar. Been there, done that. Even if you add a friction modifier like LubeGard (the black bottle variety), the synth. will cause problems. If you have stock friction materials, you may be able to get away with it, but your shifts won't be as crisp (not that I would call factory shifts "crisp" at all, but you see what I'm getting at). I've found Dexron-III with a bottle of black LubeGard serviced on a regular basis (read: often) to work best.

As far as temp goes, I cringe at anything over 195. Even with an S10 (L35) converter (about 2200-2400 RPM stall) I never see anything north of 190 F on a hot day in city traffic (summer in Texas = hotter than hell). I have the 4T60E transaxle in my GF's Grand Am running 150-170 at worst... these things stay over 200 stock. Lowering temps even seemingly small amounts in an auto greatly increases the life of not only the fluid, but the seals, solenoids, etc.

My .02 cents.




A lot of people seem to recommend adding lubegard red to dexron-III, but also, I'm pretty sure I read in another forum that adding lubegard black to dexron-III makes it perform like ATF+4.... If so, why not just use ATF+4?

So which is the best oil for a street performance trany? (Alto red + kevlar)

Lubegard red + dexron-III,
Lubegard black + dexron-III
ATF+4
Dexron 4


RED, black, +, -, III, 4.... I'm confused!!! Surprised Confused Smile



Last edited by CrazyHoe on Sun Apr 27, 2008 4:02 am; edited 1 time in total
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I've run the LubeGard black for years in my Kevlar-equipped 4L60E as well as in stock trannys. It acts as a friction modifier, making the fluid a bit more sticky. Helps with shift quality, especially with Kevlar since it is such a hard, comparatively non-porous material. Kevlar does tend to slip without increased line pressure and/or friction modifier... a lot of personal experience with that whole phenomenon. Many will tell you the opposite, that Kevlar actually grabs better (read: more aggressively) which is true, but it requires more pressure behind it to do so. If it has the pressure and correct fluid to do so, it is a more abrupt engagement than stock frictions, but the idea of it actually holding or grabbing "better" is to some degree debatable... the big advantage to Kevlar seems to be mostly in its ability to withstand some instances of slip without burning. Factory frictions won't tolerate much at all before they burn, glaze over (for lack of a better term), and then no longer can grab effectively. This is making a very long story short, but it's something I've spent a lot of time looking into and experimenting with. As to your original question (red or black), I say definitely black with the Kevlar, but the red will not hurt anything. HTH

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OK, sounds good,

but what about ATF+4 is it compatible with GM trannys, any benefits to using it?

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Honestly, I can't tell you anything about Dexron 4, if that's what it's called. I'm not up on the differences in the newer generation of Dexron past Dexron-III. I would be willing to be you'd be just fine running the newer stuff... if it shifts good and locks up right with the new stuff, drive it and don't bother with the LubeGard. If you think it needs a bit more "bite", then look int adding the friction modifier. Sorry I can't be of more help there. You can still get Dexron-III... I get mine from a local chain, Pennzoil brand.

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CrazyHoe wrote:
OK, sounds good,

but what about ATF+4 is it compatible with GM trannys, any benefits to using it?


where can i find the atf 4 at?
i tried the local oreilly's, all i saw was the dextron lll

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Post ATF-4 
I just got some from my local parts store which is similar to Napa auto parts. It's for my Grand Caravan (POS). That tranny was shifting so bad, I had notting to lose to try something diffrent (against professionnal opinion...). The rebuilder wanted $2G to redo that tranny. (The van is barely worth 1G). It would shift hard and inconsistently, sometime not engaging at all! (Fun at trafic lights!) Rolling Eyes

I suspected either metal debris blocking passages or electrical problems. Well, I removed the oil pan, cleaned all the gunk in there. (including the little porcupine magnet... So cute). Neutral
Changed the filter and fill it up with Valvoline ATF-4 + Lucas Oil treatment. (For increased viscosity)
Unscrewed the main electrical connector, check for bad contacts but all was good.

Now, this crappy van shifts beautifully, consistently and very smoothly. Razz Total cost: $70.


ATF-4 is synthetic with more consistent friction properties , It's made for Cryslers

Dexron-4 is also synthetic, I just don't know if they are interchangeable??

From Lubegard web:

http://www.lubegard.com/automotive/trans_atf_hfm.html



Why pay the price of stocking multiple OEM fluids?

Highly Friction Modified-ATF Supplement box
Item #61910
Now Available in Flush & Protect Performance Pack!

Automatic Transmission Flush & HFM-ATF Supplement Performance Pack
Item #98910



Number one tool used by professionals and the original technical developer of the conversion formula, LUBEGARD® Highly Friction Modified-ATF Supplement converts DEXRON II,III/MERCON ATF into a highly friction modified fluid. And at the same time extends your fluid life and reduces your transmission wear, saving you money and the need to stock multiple OEM fluids.

LUBEGARD® HFM-ATF SUPPLEMENT is the same product as the OEM endorsed LUBEGARD® ATF PROTECTANT but with added friction modifiers. (See ATF for benefits)

Only LUBEGARD® HFM-ATF Supplement can be used to fit the operating frictional requirements of Original Equipment Manufacturers' (OEMs) fluids as shown in the chart below.






DEXRON® III/MERCON® ATF has higher friction (less slip) during engagement
Adding LUBEGARD® HFM-ATF Supplement to DEXRON® III/MERCON® ATF makes the friction during engagement virtually the same as:
Chrysler Mopar® (7176)
A competitive HFM-ATF supplement product added to DEXRON®III/MERCON® ATF has very low friction, especially at lock-up, implying excessive clutch spin and power loss.



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Where do you find this Lube Guard that you speak of???????

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HAYWIRE wrote:
Where do you find this Lube Guard that you speak of???????


Glad to help a fellow Canuck Smile

First let me say that I have nothing to with this product nor do now anything about it's effectiveness.

All I know is that my tranny's rebuilder highly recommended it. Lubegard Red and Trans-Flush for the oil cooling system.


http://www.lifeautomotive.com/Products/ATI2001.asp
[color=black][b]http://www.lifeautomotive.com/Products/ATI2001FK.asp
http://www.lubegard.com/automotive/trans_atf.html

I've spent all of Saturday looking for this. Speed shops, auto-parts, Canadian Tire, nobody heard of these!

Found it on internet:

http://www.transtarindustries.com/locations.asp







King-O-Matic

Mississauga, Ontario, Canada
955 Pantera Drive
Mississauga, ON L4W 2T4

Phone: Sales 905-624-1000 Non-sales 905-624-1956
Fax: 905-624-4628
Toll Free: Sales 800-268-2368 Non-sales 800-921-1956

E-Mail: info@transtar1.com

Contact: Darrel Gallant



King-O-Matic

Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Unit 11 - 945 Middlefield Road
Toronto, ON M1V 5E1

Toll Free: 800-268-2368

E-Mail: info@transtar1.com

Contact: Chris Annan


http://www.transtarindustries.com/manDetails.asp?ID=5

Lubegard Red is supposed to improve the quality of the oil.
Lubegard Black is lube gard red + shift kit feeling.

Looks like your located quite far from from a distributor, soooooo for a limited time, I am able/willing to send, any product you like, free of shipping (cost of product only). I happen to work in a mail room during day!
Up to you .

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digging up bones here, but, i've also heard to steer clear of synthetics in the auto trannies. they simply allow too much slippage. even FLT (finish line transmissions) says to put regular ol' valvoline in their fully built trannies.

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I just put 10.5L of dexronVI in it Rolling Eyes

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CrazyHoe wrote:
I just put 10.5L of dexronVI in it Rolling Eyes
I was just going to type that Dad came and showed me a bottle of Dextron 6(VI) they sure have eveloved.

peace
Hog

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Hog wrote:
CrazyHoe wrote:
I just put 10.5L of dexronVI in it Rolling Eyes
I was just going to type that Dad came and showed me a bottle of Dextron 6(VI) they sure have eveloved.

peace
Hog

can that be used in a 97 chev 4l60e trans

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Ridinlow wrote:
Hog wrote:
CrazyHoe wrote:
I just put 10.5L of dexronVI in it Rolling Eyes
I was just going to type that Dad came and showed me a bottle of Dextron 6(VI) they sure have eveloved.

peace
Hog

can that be used in a 97 chev 4l60e trans
I hope so, I just used some, both in my 4l60e and in the 1957 cast iron 2 speed Powerglide I just topped off.

peace
Hog

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Hog wrote:
Ridinlow wrote:
Hog wrote:
CrazyHoe wrote:
I just put 10.5L of dexronVI in it Rolling Eyes
I was just going to type that Dad came and showed me a bottle of Dextron 6(VI) they sure have eveloved.

peace
Hog

can that be used in a 97 chev 4l60e trans
I hope so, I just used some, both in my 4l60e and in the 1957 cast iron 2 speed Powerglide I just topped off.

peace
Hog


where do you find it?

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Ridinlow wrote:
Hog wrote:
Ridinlow wrote:
Hog wrote:
CrazyHoe wrote:
I just put 10.5L of dexronVI in it Rolling Eyes
I was just going to type that Dad came and showed me a bottle of Dextron 6(VI) they sure have eveloved.

peace
Hog

can that be used in a 97 chev 4l60e trans
I hope so, I just used some, both in my 4l60e and in the 1957 cast iron 2 speed Powerglide I just topped off.

peace
Hog


where do you find it?

Local GM parts counter.

peace
Hog

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Post About GM Dexron-6 
From:
Mr. INTENSE (Administrator)


Quote:
Some have asked why GM didn’t call its new fluid Dexron-IV. A possible answer is that it wanted to reinforce the fact that the new ATF was specially made for six-speed transmissions. Another possibility is that GM wanted to leapfrog over Chrysler and Ford, whose latest generation fluids are known as ATF+4 and Mercon V, respectively.




FAST LUBE SECRETS
by Jack Zakarian

Automatic Transmission Fluid Performance Requirements On the Rise
There is a significant trend in the automatic transmission fluid (ATF) market now. Performance requirements have risen steadily the past few years to accommodate not only the automakers’ transmission design changes, but also their push for fluids to last longer and perform better.

One important example of this trend hit the market on April 1 this year. General Motors (GM) announced a new factory-fill ATF for all of its 2006 model-year cars and trucks equipped with Hydra-Matic transmissions. The new fluid will meet the Dexron-VI specification, which is a significant upgrade over the current Dexron-III spec.

This announcement caught many long-time industry observers by surprise. GM had only recently upgraded its Dexron-III spec from the “G” level to the “H” level. Now, all of a sudden, the H level will become obsolete by the end of 2006. Never before has the pace of ATF spec changes been so quick.

Many speculated that GM was developing a new generation of ATF specifically for its new six-speed, rear-wheel-drive transmissions, but the switch of GM’s entire factory-fill to a more expensive, higher performance fluid that was specially designed for six-speeds was unexpected. The factory-fill began in April with the new Hydra-Matic 6L80 transmission.

So, what does this mean for the oil change market? Most likely, this announcement is the straw that will break the back of a universal ATF. Most vehicles on U.S. highways today can get by with a standard Dexron-III/Mercon ATF. A lot of oil companies offer a multi-vehicle, or universal, ATF that will cover the standard Dexron-III and Mercon specs, as well as the Mercon V spec, and Chrysler ATF+3 and ATF+4.

However, the new GM spec will be impossible to combine with the Mercon requirements. The new GM ATF will specify a maximum viscosity of 6.4 cSt at 100º C, whereas the Ford Mercon and Mercon V specs call for a minimum viscosity of 6.8 cSt at 100º C. You can’t be less than 6.4 and greater than 6.8 at the same time!

It’s possible that future Ford specs may match GM more closely. Right now, Ford has a number of factory-fill ATFs: Mercon, Mercon V, Mercon SP and CVT fluid. It is working to simplify its system, and it may choose a lower viscosity ATF. Toyota has already gone lower with its new ATF, known as T-V, compared to its previous T-IV fluid.

The trend in ATF viscosity is to go as light as possible without sacrificing wear protection. One reason is that lower viscosity ATF is easier to pump in hydraulic circuits. However, the most important reason is that lower viscosity ATF will deliver better fuel economy - a key issue for OEMs trying to meet tight government fuel economy standards.

Another impact upon the installer market will be the price of the new ATF. Because of the more stringent ATF test specifications, the base oils and additives needed for Dexron-VI will be higher quality and higher cost than what is used in today’s Dexron-III fluids. In addition, there is only one additive supplier approved for Dexron-VI. The cost to run a GM qualification program could well be over a million dollars - a figure that will give pause to other additive suppliers who want to get official approval. Thus, with only one source of officially approved additive supply, you can almost certainly expect no price relief for the new GM fluid.

Why did GM insist on a new fluid? The company’s press release makes it clear that it is striving for superior transmission performance. That, in turn, should improve customer satisfaction and, most important for GM, cut down on warranty work. For example, the new Dexron-VI will have the following advantages compared to current Dexron-III:

More consistent viscosity during service(that is, very little sheardown).
More consistent shift performance, especially in extreme conditions.
More than double the durability in friction characteristics.
More fluid life by about 50 percent.
You can get one indication of the tighter spec limits by comparing the requirements that GM has placed on its cyclic shifting test. For the Dexron-III G spec, you had to achieve acceptable cycling test performance for 20,000 cycles. For Dexron-III H, the bar was raised to 32,000 cycles. And, for the new Dexron-VI, you have to perform well for 42,000 cycles.

Many other performance tests, such as ATF oxidation life, have similar increases in spec requirements. The GM oxidation life test is run in a 4L60 transmission operated continuously at 325º F. For the Dexron-III G spec, researchers run the test for 300 hours and the increase in oil acid number is limited to 3.25 or less. For Dexron-III H, researchers increase the test length to 450 hours, with the same limit on acid increase. With Dexron-VI, the test length is 450 hours, but the allowable acid number increase is 2.0 or less. This superior performance under high temperature conditions has allowed GM’s new ATF to be designed for drain intervals of 100,000 miles (normal service) or 50,000 miles (severe service).

Some have asked why GM didn’t call its new fluid Dexron-IV. A possible answer is that it wanted to reinforce the fact that the new ATF was specially made for six-speed transmissions. Another possibility is that GM wanted to leapfrog over Chrysler and Ford, whose latest generation fluids are known as ATF+4 and Mercon V, respectively.

For the time being, the ATF market will be stable. It will be at least a year before new GM vehicles will need ATF service. Also, the number of 2006 model-year vehicles on the road will be much smaller than the rest of the vehicle population.

It is not clear yet how many oil companies will be ready to supply Dexron-VI. They may take a wait-and-see attitude before rushing into production of a fluid with limited sales. The good news is that Dexron-VI will be backwards compatible for all previous GM transmissions that required Dexron-III or II. That means that you can install Dexron-VI in any GM transmission and it will work.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dr. Jack Zakarian is a consulting engineer with 26 years of experience in the Lubrication Technology Group, Chevron Products Company. He is a product specialist responsible for automatic and manual transmission fluids, gear oils, drive train oils and tractor hydraulic fluids. To find out more about the products Zakarian develops or about Chevron’s PowerBuilder program, call 1-866-688-8890 or visit www.chevron.com.
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