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4l60e Rebuild Project Buy or DIY. Help from the Masters.
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But DeputyD. do notice if the rpm goes up when it shudders?

I hope he's not taking you for a ride himself... Sad

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So did ur truck still miss, after the o2 sensor was hooked back up properly?

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Post Misses Misses Misses 
Well my guy hooked up his scanner and found lots of misses. He showed me them while he loaded up the engine. Most of them came from #6 cyl. We took it for a drive and I watched the active scanner. It missed on almost all cyl one time or another. Most of them were on 5 and 6. So he is going to check the wires, cap etc. and get back to me tomorrow.
I will keep you informed. I need to buy one of those OBD2 smart cables. Laughing

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Deputydawg...I'm glad you are on the right track to finding the problem. I hope the members of this Forum were not offended by "the new guy" offering help/opinions. It's like this....If you go to ten different doctors you will probably get ten different opinions. If you do the same with 10 different mechanics/technicians you will again probably get 10 different opinions. Sooooo..... what I offer here is just my opinion , only that, and althought I have a lifetime in Auto repair (42 years) I learn something new every day. I did not do transmissions so I would not question anyone's opinion in this Forum. Everyone has their way of doing things so in the words of the great Rodney King (remember him?) Can't we all just get along?

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stilcrazy wrote:
Deputydawg...I'm glad you are on the right track to finding the problem. I hope the members of this Forum were not offended by "the new guy" offering help/opinions. It's like this....If you go to ten different doctors you will probably get ten different opinions. If you do the same with 10 different mechanics/technicians you will again probably get 10 different opinions. Sooooo..... what I offer here is just my opinion , only that, and althought I have a lifetime in Auto repair (42 years) I learn something new every day. I did not do transmissions so I would not question anyone's opinion in this Forum. Everyone has their way of doing things so in the words of the great Rodney King (remember him?) Can't we all just get along?


Rodney King? Who's he?
Boy you really are retired! Wink

Kidding of course! Very Happy


As far as I can tell... we are getting along. Confused

I'm frustrated I couldn't offer better help. I can't believe similar symptoms came from different problems. His own tranny builder miss-diagnosed the problem...




My shudder seams to be gone... But I can still see the rpm go up and down 50-100 rpm every 10s.

Can someone confirm that the 4l60e never has the tc fully engaged but 95% to 99% engaged? I think I read that somewhere...

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Post Re: Misses Misses Misses 
Deputydawg wrote:
Well my guy hooked up his scanner and found lots of misses. He showed me them while he loaded up the engine. Most of them came from #6 cyl. We took it for a drive and I watched the active scanner. It missed on almost all cyl one time or another. Most of them were on 5 and 6. So he is going to check the wires, cap etc. and get back to me tomorrow.
I will keep you informed. I need to buy one of those OBD2 smart cables. Laughing


Didn't you do a tune-up last summer for a big trip?
Can't wait to hear what causes these multiple misses...

I would guess distributor....

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Yep I sure did do a tune-up last summer for the big trip. I put in the new NGKs, new cap and rotor and new coil, plug wires only had 10k on them so I left them. I did notice that when I changed out the last cap it was blasted and burnt all around the top where the contacts are. The rotor button on the end where the spark leaves was burnt bad too.
I did not think much of it so we will see what they find out.
I really would like to use the distributor and kit located here but it seems like when you venture away from OEM you get problems. So I don't know.

www.performancedistributors.com/vortec.htm

And stilcrazy... I appreciate all opinions, answers, suggestions, etc. Wink God knows I can't get it right, I know this because I had to learn a $600 lesson with this transmission.
As far as my tranny builder mis-diagnosing the problem...HRRRMMM I really think he was only worried about his tranny on the last day of it's warranty. He did prove that his tranny was good but I wish he woulda suggested the miss first. Crying or Very sad Crying or Very sad

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Ok...One more comment and I will go back to listening and learning! For those of you too young to remember, Rodney King was a black guy (in California, I think) that had the crap beat out of him by the police and he sued and got about a million. Not bad, huh? At some time he said "Can't we all just get along?" I'll watch for the answers to the problems with missing.

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stilcrazy wrote:
He might have a point. Have you tried braking the vehicle (sitting still) and increasing throttle and "loading the engine"? That will almost always show a miss and that miss will usually be a plug wire failing. If it does miss, check each plug wire by looking into the plug boot with a flashlight for signs of the radio-resistance graphite "wire" being burned away (almost always fails at the plug end) or test with an ohm meter. Look at the engine while loaded in the dark to see if you see spark jumping.




As I sat next to the mechanic yesterday in my truck this is exactly what he did. LOL Cool He used a live scanner that shows active misses.

Thanks again for the advice Stilcrazy. I really appreciate it. Smile
Hopefully today he will have a definite answer for me.

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Yeah we remember Rodney King, who eluded police, fought when he was caught, then got filmed getting the crap beat out of him. The police response was out of hand, but they weren't exactly pulling him over for a broken blinker on his way to teach Sunday School. He was also arrested twice before that beating for violent crimes, and has been arrested several times since. Most notably he was busted for trying out a transvestite. I wouldn't call him "great".

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Just remember that even a 100% running engine will show missfires on ALL cylinders. Its the cylinders that show more missfires than the rest that should be looked at.
OBD2 misfire detection is so sensitive that as each cyclinder fires the CKP senso detects each ignition event as a missfire. This is because the CKP sensor reads the acceleration/deceleration of the CKP reluctor ring that rides on teh crank.

Whether you get a SES light for missfires is dependent on what you missfire detection thresholds are set to in your PCM.

My point here is DONT believe that you have an issue beacsue you are seeing missfires on all the cylinders. The TECH2 can show missfires as a bar graph so the most missfiring cylinders are very evident.

If you heavily stall a TC the temps can reach several hundred degrees in seconds, hot enough in some cases to turn the metal "blue" from the heat. This is a different scenario from lightly stalling a TC to diagnose misfires.

peace
Hog

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CrazyHoe wrote:
stilcrazy wrote:
Deputydawg...I'm glad you are on the right track to finding the problem. I hope the members of this Forum were not offended by "the new guy" offering help/opinions. It's like this....If you go to ten different doctors you will probably get ten different opinions. If you do the same with 10 different mechanics/technicians you will again probably get 10 different opinions. Sooooo..... what I offer here is just my opinion , only that, and althought I have a lifetime in Auto repair (42 years) I learn something new every day. I did not do transmissions so I would not question anyone's opinion in this Forum. Everyone has their way of doing things so in the words of the great Rodney King (remember him?) Can't we all just get along?


Rodney King? Who's he?
Boy you really are retired! Wink

Kidding of course! Very Happy


As far as I can tell... we are getting along. Confused

I'm frustrated I couldn't offer better help. I can't believe similar symptoms came from different problems. His own tranny builder miss-diagnosed the problem...




My shudder seams to be gone... But I can still see the rpm go up and down 50-100 rpm every 10s.

Can someone confirm that the 4l60e never has the tc fully engaged but 95% to 99% engaged? I think I read that somewhere...

the 98+ 60e never does 100% lockup, the TC also uses woven carbon fiber clutch to deal with all this slippage. This called an ECCC (or EC3) lockup strategy. This reduces TCC apply shocking to the chassis.
The 96-97 60e uses, less slippage, pretty sure the 95 and back 60e's uses 100% lockup with a cellulose (paper) clutch.

peace
Hog

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Hog wrote:

the 98+ 60e never does 100% lockup, the TC also uses woven carbon fiber clutch to deal with all this slippage. This called an ECCC (or EC3) lockup strategy. This reduces TCC apply shocking to the chassis.
The 96-97 60e uses, less slippage, pretty sure the 95 and back 60e's uses 100% lockup with a cellulose (paper) clutch.

peace
Hog



Wow!....



I can't get a local mechanic to do a decent troubleshooting, but Hog here, gives me a more in depth explanation than my local GM service manager can.

Wow!

Thanks, that was enlightening.

Ok, so will James's fix, eliminate my 98+ fluttering under light throttle?
Can this be modified in EFI-live?

Thanks

-Ben_

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CrazyHoe wrote:
Hog wrote:

the 98+ 60e never does 100% lockup, the TC also uses woven carbon fiber clutch to deal with all this slippage. This called an ECCC (or EC3) lockup strategy. This reduces TCC apply shocking to the chassis.
The 96-97 60e uses, less slippage, pretty sure the 95 and back 60e's uses 100% lockup with a cellulose (paper) clutch.

peace
Hog



Wow!....



I can't get a local mechanic to do a decent troubleshooting, but Hog here, gives me a more in depth explanation than my local GM service manager can.

Wow!

Thanks, that was enlightening.

Ok, so will James's fix, eliminate my 98+ fluttering under light throttle?
Can this be modified in EFI-live?

Thanks

-Ben_

No probs, not 100% sure if the PWM can be disabled via EFILive, but if your issue with fluttering has to do with TCC slippage, eliminating the slippage could work.

peace
Hog

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Well I just got off phone with the mechanic. He said that the truck needs a new set of plug wires. He said that the #6 cyl wire is the worst and it misses on that cyl the worst. But......when he moves the #6 wire to the #4 cyl the miss does not follow to that cyl.??? He says the plugs look good but that he is recommending a new set of wires. He said that when he touches the #6 wire it shocks him. Ok.. so he then told me that a new set of GM wires will run me $278.00.(cost including installation)

Well I know I can install my own wires etc.. So what do you guys think about this product? For almost the same price he is charging me for wires I can get this. I don't know anything about this product though.

www.performancedistributors.com/vortec.htm

Or should I just do OEM A/C Delco products?

Thanks,
Ken

Smile Oh and Hi HOG thanks for the input. You have always been a big help with your posts. Smile

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Deputydawg....Look in a Summit catalog or go on-line. Since I retired in 2000 I have lost track of what things cost but I think you can do much better. Moroso ,MSD and Accel are just three good brands. DO NOT USE the factory metal plug wire shields if yours has them. Good quality wires are plenty heat resistant enough and do not need shields. I have dealt with Summit and all their products are high quality. Depending on your local suppliers/stores , you could buy local.

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I'm using MSD wires with no issues.
Strange that 'screamin demon' coil. You can adjust dwell time with EFILive.
I have been reading a bit about trany tuning lately and I have seen this issue raised.
A few people have set their TCC Min PWM to 99 across the board and the Max to 100 across the board.

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Here is some information that may be useful. This is very basic so that everyone can understand. Most plug wire sets are ruined by trying to remove. Stress by pulling on the graphite impregnated strand can cause damage and will cause early failure. Try this if the wire/boot does not come off easily. First twist the boot. If the boot does not twist easily, do not force. Use a "tool" made from anything that has a rounded tip and is about 1/8' in diameter and 6'-8" long. Old phillips screwdriver with the tip ground round is one suggestion. Lube the wire and boot with WD-40 and gently push the tool in beside the wire and boot. Then spray again with WD-40. If this is very hard to reach, make your own "spray straw" out of plastic tubing like what is used for air shock installation. This will enable you to connect to the spray can some distance from the plugs. You can insert this "straw" inside the boot beside the tool. Work the tool gently around the boot/plug to break it loose. The boot may pull back up the wire and that is fine. Then take a pair of needle-nose pliers to remove the wire terminal from the plug. This goes a lot quicker after you do one or two and it does take a little time but will save you the cost of a set of wires when doing a tune-up.

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Stilcrazy.... Yes as I remember when I installed the new NGK TR55 plugs I had to pull the heck out of a few of the wires to get them off. Maybe I stressed old #6 just enough that it lasted a bit before now finally breaking down.

The wires that are on there are the Accell Super Tuner Truck wires. They have the right angle ends on them and are a bitch to get on and off the plugs. I will be replacing them with the straight in kind.


I am looking at the kit that I previously mentioned. They also sell a sweet distributor too. Evil or Very Mad

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Buddy of mine who used to be a crew chief for Jim Walton (top fueller) told me recently...."never buy Accel...they're junk".
I know a few guys such as James are using the Accel replacement distributor....mainly because it's an all aluminium unit...and until recently...the only one available for our Vortec's.
I have had no issues with the $80.00 IDK Ebay distributor and MSD wires.

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