Yes, I've flip-flopped on this issue more than John Kerry sitting in the middle seat of a flight between a pro-war constituent and an anti-war constituent. Yes, I know everyone is probably bored with it. But here I am again. Only this time, I'm going to act. I'm putting the money back, and trying to build it up at the casinos (I actually do pretty well on the blackjack tables). I intend to do the swap next summer, right after the family vacation.

My son has decided to stay with me a few more years while he pursues college for a career as an animator. This means all my plans are pushed back a few years. I don't mind though, whatever it takes to get him off to a better start in life than I had. But, it also means that I have to push off finishing my truck. With my desire to eventually put a diesel in, I don't want to cut the frame as would be required to go with an LSx block (have to notch the crossmember for the oilpan (which also must be modded) and the right framerail for the air conditioning), so I'm back to a Gen 1 engine. I don't know what kind of framework the diesel will require yet. I will NOT go through the next 5 years with that 2.8L.

Anyhoo, here's the specs so far. Going to go with a Comp 258 to 262 roller cam, headers, not sure on heads, 700R4 auto trans, 3.23 to 3.42 rear gears, redline about 5500RPM. Based off this, what engine would you go with? My main concern with the 302 is they are historically high rev engines, and I'm building a street machine with an automatic.

And, what injection system? I've got a complete TPI in a box minus computer and injectors, or I can run a TBI with a dual plane intake. I'm inclined to go with a TBI because it would be easier. Please state your reasons, and please no suggestions on using a larger engine. The 5 liter will do the job required just fine, and if GM's new diesel engines coming out over the next 3 years aren't crap then that will be the 5 liter's replacement.

I've heard TBI makes more power off idle than TPI, but TPI makes more up top. I've also heard (don't know for sure if it's true or not) that TPI gets better fuel mileage by a little bit. That being said, off idle is probably better for a daily driver.

I'd need some more input to make an informed decision on the TBI vs. TPI topic, but my vote definitely goes to the 305 over the 302.

I would do TPI vs TBI, just because of the fact you are not spraying fuel past the throtte blades. plus you can run it on a 411 pcm and have much more control over the tpi ecm.

X2 What S10Mods said. If you are only going to spin it to 5500, you would be better off with a longer stroke. TPI also works very well below 5500 RPM. Injector choice is unlimited with TPI and the 0411 PCM would control it very well. TBI would work well, except, If you are going to all of the trouble of a swap, why not step up to something more modern.

I've done several TPI installations. For normal street cars, they work great. Gobs of torque, but level out 4500-500 rpm for most engines. Injectors spray directly in ports as opposed to TBI.
There's a great link on Thirdgen.org for changing over to 0411 PCM. http://www.thirdgen.org/techboard/tpi/383323-tpi-obdii-thoughts-opinions.html?highlight=s10wildside
You'd have to go to 4L60E to do it right, but you'd have the best setup you can get.
You can port heads, intake, plenum, and pick up lots of extra power and rpm.
LT1 and stock LT4 cams work great and CHEAP.
If you are on the cheap, get someone to give you a 307, bore it to 327 piston(used set of course), and you will have a cheap 327. Great bore to stroke ratio.

scuzz wrote:

I've done several TPI installations. For normal street cars, they work great. Gobs of torque, but level out 4500-500 rpm for most engines. Injectors spray directly in ports as opposed to TBI.
There's a great link on Thirdgen.org for changing over to 0411 PCM. http://www.thirdgen.org/techboard/tpi/383323-tpi-obdii-thoughts-opinions.html?highlight=s10wildside

Thanks everyone. I'm thinking the TPI now, especially with Scuzz's suggestion on the 411 conversion. Seems EFI Connection makes a harness to plug a TPI into a 411 PCM, and seeing as I have EFI Live and a TPI, seems like a natural now.

scuzz wrote:

You'd have to go to 4L60E to do it right, but you'd have the best setup you can get.

Course, then he wrote THIS and I quit taking him seriously...

scuzz wrote:

You can port heads, intake, plenum, and pick up lots of extra power and rpm.
LT1 and stock LT4 cams work great and CHEAP.
If you are on the cheap, get someone to give you a 307, bore it to 327 piston(used set of course), and you will have a cheap 327. Great bore to stroke ratio.

Thought about the 327 too, but really the cranks are kinda pricey. I'd want a decent, large journal crank for anything I do.

Now on the engine, people wrote 305 but voted 302. Pros/cons to the 302 vs the 305? I know how the 305 runs and am pretty happy with how they perform towards my overall goals, but am not sure how well a 302 would do on a sub-6000RPM engine. According to the DD2000 simulators I've run, both engines show that they will make 400+HP and 400+TQ when built as high compression engines with a Comp 258 roller cam. My truck will spin the tires with an engine that makes 100HP and 125TQ. So power won't be an issue, both should throw the truck down the road at a pretty good clip. Not sure which would do better on mileage though. Hmmm....

Know what? Screw it, I'll do a Vortec 305 for it, plug in an EFI Connection wiring harness, 411 PCM and TPI, and see where it goes from there.

Any head suggestions for the 305? I'd prefer a good aluminum head that will accept a TPI setup.

Hey why not a 331....400 crank in your 305 ...later use the 400 crank in a 383...just a thought.... Lorne

If you get a good 307, it has the same crank as a 327. Just the bore is 1/8" smaller. Shop around for a used set of 327 pistons, and bore your cylinders to the used pistons. Works everytime and cheap.
You can put a 350 crank in and a set of used 350 pistons and have a cheap 350.
I've got an old machine shop friend that has done probably a hundred or more 327 and 350 engines from 305 blocks over the hast 30 years. He's done a couple 307/327 engines for me over the years. He saved all his old 327 and 350 pistons just for the changeovers. You still got plenty of cylinder wall.
The bad thing about making power on 305 is the bore is so small, they don't breath good. I have two 305 TPI's running now in a 40 Chevy and 67 Firebird, and I like them, but they are a little over stock and run great.
You probably can buy a good running 305 Vortec/4L60E combo from a wrecked truck pretty reasonable and not have to build anything engine wise.
One of my 305 TPI runs a set of SR Torquer heads, LT4 cam, Eldebrock intake, SLP runners, and ported plenum. I used a short block from 305 Vortec that came from junk yard. It really runs great for moderate mods, but I spent about 1500.00.

After reading that 3rd gen site (posting there as Telco, btw, started a little stink when I asked about 302 vs 305) I'm thinking about picking up a wiring harness from EFI Connection, then slapping it on a 305 rebuild. I won't do a 350, looking more for mileage than power here, but I do want some power. Just gotta find some heads that will fit a 305 bore and the TPI unit and I'm solid here. I absolutely will not build a 350, but I don't think anyone wants that rehashed again. If I were to go larger than a 305 I'd do a 400 with a TBI on it.

Later on I want to go diesel, otherwise I'd be putting in a 4.8L LSx engine. Everything I've read about the LSx conversion for an S10 states that you have to cut the frame to put this in though, and I'd just as soon not do any frame cutting when I can put a Gen 1 engine in without cutting the frame. I'll save all that for the diesel, which won't happen until I've got a place to take my time doing it.

Find you a set of 87-91 vette aluminum heads. The last 3 numbers of the casting is 113. They have the 58cc chamber just like a 305 head, but work much better, especially if you port them a little. I've picked them up on corvette forum and ebay in the 300-400 range.
A lot of guys on thirdgen site run them on 305's.
You have to hook up egr to header if you have to have it, but not a problem.

Outstanding! Thanks!

Speeder wrote:

Later on I want to go diesel, otherwise I'd be putting in a 4.8L LSx engine. Everything I've read about the LSx conversion for an S10 states that you have to cut the frame to put this in though, and I'd just as soon not do any frame cutting when I can put a Gen 1 engine in without cutting the frame. I'll save all that for the diesel, which won't happen until I've got a place to take my time doing it.

I thought I remember reading somewhere that someone used the LS2 oil pan from a GTO and it fits without cutting the crossmember. I will be doing more research on this as I am doing a 6.0/T56 in my S10 Blazer. IMO you would be better off running a 4.8 LSx rather than a Gen I 305. the 4.8 would get better milage and has more power stock (4.8 ) to stock (TPI 305)
The LB9 305 is a tune port induction, 205 HP@ 4200 285 ft lbs @ 3200
LR4
The Vortec 4800 LR4 is a Generation III small block V8 truck engine. Displacement is 4.8 L (293 in³) with a 96.01 mm bore and 83 mm stroke. It is the smallest of the Generation III Vortec truck engines and was the replacement for the 5.0 L 5000 L30. The LR4 produces 270-295 hp (201-220 kW) and 285-305 ft·lbf (386-414 N·m) of torque, depending on the model year and application. LR4s are manufactured at St. Catharines, Ontario and Romulus, Michigan.

this guy fit the complete truck engine with the tall intake.
http://s31.photobucket.com/albums/c393/cgmerriner/truck%20swap/

ahhh Here it is. the LS2 pan fits. go threw this thread, there is a lot of good info.
http://www.s10forum.com/forum/f213/parts-list-and-swap-info-from-black-x-lsx-swap-283608/index3.html

I hope this guy dont mind me reposting his pics.

Thanks for the pics. That would do it on the oil pan, but there'd still be the AC issue. I know I'd get a little better mileage and more power from the 4.8L, but as I've already got the TPI and a serpentine belt setup. I also don't want to have to notch the frame for the AC. I'm going to stick with the 305 idea. If the 4.5L turbodiesel turns out to be crap, then I'll be looking at the 4.8L, and by that time I'll be able to take the truck off the road for however long it takes to do the job right. And, by that time the 6L80E will be out, so I'd be able to just do a complete full upgrade. The SBC swap is well supported enough that I should be able to knock it out in a week or so.