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Belt routing
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Post Belt routing 
Im wondering if its possible with an accessory bracket setup from a 91 TBI™ 1500 to bypass the water pump and run the belt around the crank, power steering, alternator, tensioner, ac delete, idler and back to the crank. Would this just slip and burn the heck out of the belt or could it work? The ease of the serpentine belt but dont want the drag of the water pump and thinkin about an electric.

Thoughts and experiences ya'll
Thanks

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Nobody? I found a picture on google someone else done it but its in a yukon or something and no info on how well it worked Sad[/img]

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Can you post the pic here.

I think it's going to slip if you don't have at least 1/2 turn engagement ob the crank.

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https://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&tbs=sbi%3AAMhZZivFzOGNQ6GF_1npmR1LCbz9lg21VPm7D4vaYVsGfu5AUjT-VHGoduWQn443l435EDS7fzwiaWPEOR5YDre3U3wa8ccoIfmziqFVbg6_1QDWiorReZNyrtO5Ek7DF1mBN78j3-vF828baP2FfRwZzSsjxI4srKSzxjjmvslWPvheqzHv7vLvyRgPA3MX-T0Cy7d1ED5c5ihkcWOrjnJwr8hsi0gtaCjw&ei=XJqaVbfsGMvqoATK657wDQ&ved=0CAYQiBw

Thats the link for the google search to the picture and the forums. The gbody forum is the one i started, the motor is in a monte carlo ss but you guys have been amazing in the past. Sbc is sbc

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Ok here I go!

Keep the serpentine belt, it's more energy efficient than the traditional V-belt and it's self-tensioning.




At rest, tension is equal everywhere on the belt.

When the engine is running, there is a load differential before and after the "drive pulley" (the crank shaft pulley).

There is high tension between the crank pulley, and all the accessories, but on the other side, you have a "slack" or less tension.

You need a minimum of tension on the slack side to have enough grip on the crank pulley, that's why you always have the belt tentionner on the slack side to pick up the...slack.

If you have a high load on the slack side before the belt tensioner, that will cause the tensioner to "tension up" causing a slack on other accessories including the crank pulley. And you'll have belt chirp.

That's exactly what I don't like in the picture. Every time the AC cycles on, there's going to be belt slippage. To fix the picture, the pulley above the crank needs to be an idler and, the belt tentioner needs to be between the crank pulley and the AC on the left.

Now if you say you're not going to have an AC then go for it!

I guesstimate there is similar length of belt on the crank pulley as there is on the alternator. So I don't think you'll have any belt issues.


Take an old Vortec belt and cut it to the length needed to route it with the tensioner pulled back. then measure it .

Before you purchase the E-pump,
Without removing the mechanical pump, You can try it on a cold engine with the belt rooting that you want to prove the concept.

Hope It works, please report.

Thanks.



Last edited by CrazyHoe on Sat Jul 11, 2015 8:40 am; edited 1 time in total
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No ac on mine. It dyno'd at 470hp no accessories. Crank and waterpump. Im having cooling issues now with the hi vol water pump and want to get back the hp from it. I have ac delete pulley in place of the ac pump.

No load post tensioner

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Cooling issues at idle?
Highway speed?
1/4 mile run?

Could be due to too small of a radiator?
Restriction from thermostat?


It would be great to somehow attach pre and post radiator temp sensors.

A high differential would indicate low flow.

A low differential but high temp would indicate too small of radiator of lack of air flow.

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Brand new 3 core aluminum 17x26 core. 55/45 mix antifreeze/water. Hi vol reverse water pump. 4800 cfm e fans. 1 16" 1 12"
Would run 210 on hiway and 230+ idle with 160* tstat. Punched center. Got better.
3/4" restrictor plate even better. 5/8 restrictor cools at idle to 170ish but still runs 190ish on hiway at 3300rpm

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erik_bob wrote:
3/4" restrictor plate even better. 5/8 restrictor cools at idle to 170ish but still runs 190ish on hiway at 3300rpm


What!!?

You put more flow restriction and the engine cools more! WTF!

That's the job of the thermostat: no or very little flow until temp is reached then opens at pre-determined temp which is (160* in your case), and if temp drops below 160, then closes again... The faster it flows, the less temperature difference between the ins and outs.

Did you install a smaller crank pulley?

Does the lower hose have a spring inside? This spring keeps the lower hose from collapsing and being sucked closed when engine revs are increased and is often overlooked.

The fans are pulling in the right direction? (not stupid ?, some after market can be configured as puller or pusher)

I would test the thermostat separately to make sure it opens good.


Quote:
Small block radiators for your application are 21" wide and big block radiators are 23" wide (OEM sizing). As a cooling upgrade is your goal, I would suggest a big block sized radiator having the thickest core that you can get (either a 4-row OEM style brass/copper unit or an equivalent 2-row 1.25" tube aluminum unit). Whether you source your radiator from Griffin or elsewhere, you will require a matching OEM style big block (23" wide) fan shroud to fit the wider radiator.

Make sure that you have a good quality OEM style fan of the correct diameter and that it is not only centered in the shroud opening (left/right/up/down), but that it extends the correct distance towards the radiator (front to rear) to maximize effectiveness of the shroud, as your small block is a bit shorter that a big block engine. Generally, you want the rear of the fan blades either even with the rear of the shroud opening or extending no more than 1/2" rearward (towards the engine) from that point. If the fan is positioned too far forward or too far rearward, it will not be as effective at working in concert with the shroud to pull the maximum amount of air through the radiator core.

So, depending on water pump length, you may or may not need to utilize a spacer between the fan and the water pump pulley to get your fan in the correct position (front to rear) within the shroud. Just remember that if the shroud is a significant distance from the water pump and you have a choice of either a long water pump and no fan spacer at all or a very thin fan spacer...... And your other choice would be to use a very thick spacer and longer attaching bolts in conjunction with a short water pump...... It is preferable to utilize the longer pump and corresponding pulleys. In that way, the weight of the fan is not leveraged out a great distance past the water pump, thereby placing unnecessary strain on the front seal and shaft bearing of the water pump...... And it is much easier to ensure that the fan remains centered on the water pump shaft at higher revs as well.

Other than the thermostat and water pump, other items to be mindful of include radiator hoses, water pump bypass hoses and heater hoses. Not only condition, but placement to ensure that they do not rub on other parts and make sure that your lower hose has a good spring inside. This spring keeps the lower hose from collapsing and being sucked closed when engine revs are increased and is often overlooked. If hoses must lay on other parts, you can take a pair of scissors and cut a small patch from a donor hose of the same diameter and glue it with black RTV to your new hose at the point it will make contact to protect it. (You can also do this using small pieces of fuel line where spark plug cables must lie on valve covers or contact one another, by the way.) Good insurance and hardly noticeable.

Coolant...... Unless you live in ice pack conditions...... A 50/50 mix of good quality anti-freeze and distilled water along with a suitable additive to aid in preventing corrosion of aluminum and pot metal parts in contact with engine coolant will work fine and protect your system from corrosion. If you do live in extremely cold climes, a higher percentage of anti-freeze may be required. Never mix regular anti-freeze (usually green or blue in color) with Dexron types (usually red in color). They are not compatible and mixing them will ruin your engine in short order. Always follow manufacturer's recommendations regarding percentage required and compatibility, etc. Never use tap water in a radiator (or battery, for that matter) unless it is a temporary do or die situation and you cannot make it back to civilization any other way...... And then drain and flush your system and refill it with the right stuff as soon as you are able.

** As your engine will be based on a 400 siamesed bore small block, be mindful to use the correct head gaskets having the 400 cooling holes and to make sure that you drill the corresponding cooling holes into your heads if they are not 400 production items as well.

** If you are planning on more than 0.030" overbore, high compression, boost pressure from a blower or turbo or a shot of nitrous oxide, sonic testing and use of ARP attaching studs in lieu of head bolts are not a bad idea with 400 production blocks.

Happy Motoring,

Harry


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Can you specify your engine block and heads please

Pics would be great too!!


erik_bob wrote:
Hi vol reverse water pump. 4800 cfm e fans. 1 16" 1 12"


Reverse flow or reverse rotation (Counterclockwise)?

Or reverse flow and rotation!? lol


(I guess they don't make reverse flow belt driven pumps)

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Still not forsure on how to post pictures here. Block is a 2 bolt main 400ci bored .030 over. Procomp heads 3003. 210cc runners 64cc chambers. 10.93:1 compression

Waterpump is a hi vol reverse rotation. Goes block heads rad.
I will replace the lower rad hose friday when i do the e pump swap. Using all the pulleys from the 91 TBI™ accessory setup. 7.75" crank and 6.5" wp pulley i think it is.

With the 5/8 restrictor on a 35*c day it will cool. Fans are pullers. Around town in traffic fans are set for 180*f it will slowly cool off. But as soon as revs get over 2500 it warms up again.

We are thinking the hi vol pump was moving too much and not giving adequate time in the rad to cool. Now with the 5/8 i think its not enough at higher rpm but works at idle

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If you can pm me your email, ill post them for you.

You have an older 400 with Siamese cylinders? So first thing come to mind: what did you do for the steam holes?



erik_bob wrote:
We are thinking the hi vol pump was moving too much and not giving adequate time in the rad to cool. Now with the 5/8 i think its not enough at higher rpm but works at idle


This is a common misconception amongst experienced mechanics.

I would love for you to try this:

remove the thermostat, remove the restrictor, bolt back on the thermostat housing and fill the coolant. Let it idle to temp until the fan comes on and note the maximum temp without letting it get too hot if it does.


You will have maximum cooling so the temp should not even go above 160*
If it's at normal temp, go for a ride and make sure it's not too hot and not too cold. I'm willing to bet that it will have a hard time staying hot if there is not an other problem.



You have to look at this in therms of BTUs.

The internal combustion engine generates mechanical energy and releases thermal energy (from the exhaust and from the cooling system).

There is little BTUs created at Idle because there is little HP generated. So the only reasons it's hot at idle it's cause there is not enough water flow or there is not enough air flow.

Regardless of water flow (to a certain point), the radiator expels heat fairly proportionally to the amount of air passing trough.

Double the air flow, doubles the BTUs removed from the water.

And you need a lot of air to cool water. (air is approx 700 times less dense)



I say water flow is irrelevant (for the radiator) but the air flow is for the BTUs removed from the water.

One BTU is the amount of energy needed to heat one pound of water one degree Fahrenheit (or cooled)


So you can have 100 pound of water cooled 1* or (high flow)
10 pounds of water cooled 10* (low flow)

You still end up with 100 BTUs of cooling from the radiator.

BUT!


The flow is extremely important for the engine here's why:

An engine will have the same amount of BTUs removed by the water regardless of the flow just like the radiator.

But, and this is where it is very important to understand: you want that water to flow as fast as possible so that you have the least temperature differential between inlet and outlet so that the engine has the least temperature variation throughout the block and heads. The worst would be to have water go in so slow that by the time it exits the block, it got heated to the point of boiling!

I would much rather 1000 pounds of water heated only 0.1* = 100 BTUs

The reasonable limit is the energy wasted flowing all that water.

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http://www.crankshaftcoalition.com/wiki/Bulletproof_cooling_system




Quote:
SBC 400 cooling

From a Chevy High Performance article:

This 1003 high- performance Fel-Pro head gasket (below) features larger 7/16-inch coolant passages (a) that will produce greater coolant flow to prevent excessive heat buildup between the center cylinders. The high-performance Fel-Pro gaskets also reduce coolant flow in the indicated areas (b) to help redirect the coolant between the center cylinders. If necessary, you may have to drill a 7/16-inch hole (c) in the block to increase coolant flow between the center cylinders. Only do this when the engine is completely disassembled to prevent iron drill chips from damaging the engine.


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I didn't have time to read all but they seem to agree with me:

http://stewartcomponents.com/index.php?route=information/information&information_id=11
http://stewartcomponents.com/index.php?route=information/information&information_id=6

Quote:
Tech Tip #3 - Thermostats & Restrictors

Thermostats & Restrictors
We strongly recommend NEVER using a restrictor: they decrease coolant flow and ultimately inhibit cooling.

For applications requiring a thermostat to keep the engine at operating temperature, we recommend using a Stewart/Robertshaw high flow thermostat. This thermostat does not restrict flow when open. The Stewart/ Robertshaw thermostat enhances the performance of the cooling system, using any style of water pump. However, the Stewart Stage 1 high-flow water pump may require this thermostat to operate properly, and Stewart Stage 2, 3, and 4 water pumps simply will NOT operate with a regular thermostat because these pumps have no internal bypasses.

Stewart further modifies its thermostat by machining three 3/16" bypass holes directly in the poppet valve, which allows some coolant to bypass the thermostat even when closed. This modification does result in the engine taking slightly longer to reach operating temperature in cold weather, but it allows the thermostat to function properly when using a high flow water pump at high engine RPM.

A common misconception is that if coolant flows too quickly through the system, that it will not have time to cool properly. However the cooling system is a closed loop, so if you are keeping the coolant in the radiator longer to allow it to cool, you are also allowing it to stay in the engine longer, which increases coolant temperatures. Coolant in the engine will actually boil away from critical heat areas within the cooling system if not forced through the cooling system at a sufficiently high velocity. This situation is a common cause of so-called "hot spots", which can lead to failures.

Years ago, cars used low pressure radiator caps with upright-style radiators. At high RPM, the water pump pressure would overcome the radiator cap's rating and force coolant out, resulting in an overheated engine. Many enthusiasts mistakenly believed that these situations were caused because the coolant was flowing through the radiator so quickly, that it did not have time to cool. Using restrictors or slowing water pump speed prevented the coolant from being forced out, and allowed the engine to run cooler. However, cars built in the past thirty years have used cross flow radiators that position the radiator cap on the low pressure (suction) side of the system. This type of system does not subject the radiator cap to pressure from the water pump, so it benefits from maximizing coolant flow, not restricting it.


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I have 400 head gaskets. Only got the one set of steam holes drilled in the heads. The pro comp heads were solid cast on the intake side. Drilled same size as the holes in the block. Some say holes. Some say no holes.

The e pump thats comming is a 35+ gpm for a steady flow. Will try it first with the 160* t stat installed and then go from there with the restrictor plates. My rad is a champion cooling systems 3 core aluminum g body rad. They rate it for 850hp.

The 16" fan is 3000cfm on the inlet side of the rad. 12" is 1750 cfm in the center on the outlet side of the rad

470 hp at the crank. Its fun and drivable. Just have to watch temps. Hasnt crested 205 since the 5/8 restrictor was installed.
Would prefer it to run 170 all the time, i know it will get hotter comming off the end of the 1/4 but should cool by the time i hit the pits....is the goal anyway

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erik_bob wrote:
I have 400 head gaskets. Only got the one set of steam holes drilled in the heads. The pro comp heads were solid cast on the intake side. Drilled same size as the holes in the block. Some say holes. Some say no holes.

The e pump thats comming is a 35+ gpm for a steady flow. Will try it first with the 160* t stat installed and then go from there with the restrictor plates. My rad is a champion cooling systems 3 core aluminum g body rad. They rate it for 850hp.

The 16" fan is 3000cfm on the inlet side of the rad. 12" is 1750 cfm in the center on the outlet side of the rad

470 hp at the crank. Its fun and drivable. Just have to watch temps. Hasnt crested 205 since the 5/8 restrictor was installed.
Would prefer it to run 170 all the time, i know it will get hotter comming off the end of the 1/4 but should cool by the time i hit the pits....is the goal anyway


Everything sounds good.

But I'd really like it if could test running without restrictor and without thermostat.
Just try it, no extra cost.




FYI
Small-Block 400 Cooling Tricks:

http://www.superchevy.com/how-to/90678-small-block-400-cooling-tricks/

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Electric water pumps are great at idle and cruising speeds but do not have the flow potential a mechanical pump has at higher engine RPM and sustained loads. You'll need to watch your temperature gauge when pulling any long hills or anything else with sustained duration of throttle.

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Swapping the dual plain intake for a single plain last night and installing the e wp at the same time. Found the 5/8 restrictor concaved in from the ammount of water being pushed through. New lower rad hose. 20 lb cap. 71" 6 rib serpentine to bypass the wp. Hope to button it up tonight after work. Starter decided it didnt want to work any more so ill have to exchange that befor i can test it

Crazyhoe what kind of pictures would you like me to email to you?

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erik_bob wrote:
Crazyhoe what kind of pictures would you like me to email to you?


What ever you want to have posted.

Pics of your new serpentine set-up would be nice.


Have you considered doing rear waterlines for "better cooling" of the heads?



http://www.speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=23070



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erik_bob wrote:
Swapping the dual plain intake for a single plain last night and installing the e wp at the same time. Found the 5/8 restrictor concaved in from the ammount of water being pushed through. New lower rad hose. 20 lb cap. 71" 6 rib serpentine to bypass the wp. Hope to button it up tonight after work. Starter decided it didnt want to work any more so ill have to exchange that befor i can test it

Crazyhoe what kind of pictures would you like me to email to you?


Wow. If your water pump is pushing hard enough to bend a metal restrictor, it's sucking plenty hard enough to collapse the lower hose. Based on what James B said about an electric not being able to handle a sustained hard load (most folks I know that use them primarily use them for drag racing, 10 seconds of hard use at a time) I'd suggest just getting a regular flow water pump. A regular flow water pump won't overstress the system and won't take as much power off the engine to operate.

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