I have a 97 k1500 l31 4l60e setup with jet dst but no data logging capabilities . I was going to see what would be easier and cheaper swaping in a 98 pcm or the 411 pcm. The only question I have on the whole swap is that in 1998 the 4l60e trans uses a different torque converter lockup strategy called ec^3 which the pcm duty cycles the TC to partially lockup from 2nd gear on, 3rdand 4th fully lock up eventually(GM's changes for fuel economy). the 98&up torque converter material is different it is a woven carbon material that takes care of the extra heat in the converter which was added by the partially locking up(slipping) of the TC. The 97 and 98 model TC cannot be interchanged according to Sonnax. I just didn't know what would happen if you placed a 411 pcm in a truck with the old style 1997 4l60e if it would try to partially lockup the TC and create enough heat and destroy the TC and Trans. I would really like to find a way to have the data logging capability of the 98 and up pcm's with jetdst/tc and efilive but I am just trying to figure out this difference before I sink even more money into my black sheep 97 truck.
Thank you for any help...
Robby

The best solution for the transmission is to completely remove the pulse-width modulation from the valve body. This will make your transmission compatible with all Gen-I or Gen-II aftermarket performance or OEM stock converters.

Get a service manual for the trans, drop the valve body, find the pulse valve and put a very strong spring in it. The point here is to prevent the valve from cycling. The PCM will have no trouble at all with this modification.



For data logging you can get Autotap. It's not perfect but does work. Unfortunately it's expensive too and does only logging.

Thank you for the helpful Info!
I am open to all suggestions but I will definitely consider this.
Robby



Last edited by stroker97k1500 on Tue Feb 05, 2008 7:13 pm; edited 1 time in total

I'm wondering if they screwed this one up on the rebuild. They said my valve body was junk and gave me a new one.

When I am in gear selector 3, cruising down the highway and I let off the gas to decelerate (like after a passing maneuver) the truck RPM's will flutter and fluctuate like the torque converter is acting strange. Does not do it in overdrive, only third at highway speeds.

Eric

In EFILive there are two tables related to TCC PWM (min and max tables).

I have not had to deal with this personally, but am considering installing a non-PWM trans into my 98 truck with a 411 pcm swapped in. I imagine you would want to set both tables to 100% duty cycle so that there is no slippage? Or would it be 0%?

The reason for PWM is to have a small controlled amount of slippage, for smoother engagement and release.

Both the 1997 and the 1998 trans BOTH use a partial or controlled slippage strategy. The 1997 slips less than the 1998+ trans. IIRC the 1997 slips about 20-25 rpm and the 1998+ slips at about 50-75 rpm.
Both the 1997 and the 1998+ 4l60e transmissions DO NOT lock whatsoever in 2nd gear, they do lock in 3rd and 4th gear. I just went through a few Vortec 350 calibration files and discovered there is no commanded lockup in 2nd gear, only 3rd and 4th.


The 700r4 is the 1989 trucks(probably other years as well, but 1989 for sure) would lock the TCC in 2nd, 3rd and 4th.

I have a 1999 4l60e bolt on bellhousing trans and V6 torque converter in my 1997 reg cab shortbox Vortec 350 V8 that originally was equipped with a 1 pice cast in bellhousing. I have had this trans/T. Converter combo in my truck for over 2 years now with no issues.(knock on wood).

I would go with what James recommends, he knows his trans stuff. You can also add a vacuum modulator to allow line pressure to be controlled via vacuum instead of the PCM. I have read that the PCM cannot "keep up" to changing conditions as quickly as is needed. This is just what I have heard, I have no proof of this.

peace
Hog

Here's some useful links on the subject that I'm sure would help out a few people (Hog, you'll probably find these intersting if you haven't already read them...):

http://impalassforum.com/noncgi/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=4;t=006665
http://impalassforum.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=4;t=006765

I know the're for B-body cars, but of course alot of the info applies to our trucks as well.

You would want the minimum and maximum duty cycles set to 100% to have on-off control.

EE to the rescue

Is there anyway that the newer 411 pcm would be looking for more slippage from the 97 4l60e and not receiving it therefore possibly reducing the line pressure to make it slip and eventually wear out the clutches prematurely?

Hog, your converter does not lock in 3rd when in OD, correct?

On another note, I have the V6 converter in my 97 as well...and at times the converter slips when locked in OD...I can slip it almost 300 rpm before the load is too much and the converter is unlocked. That has always worried me, the stock one had no issues.

cooker2003 wrote:

Hog, your converter does not lock in 3rd when in OD, correct?

On another note, I have the V6 converter in my 97 as well...and at times the converter slips when locked in OD...I can slip it almost 300 rpm before the load is too much and the converter is unlocked. That has always worried me, the stock one had no issues.

When my TCC is locked, I can apply quite a bit of throttle and the revs dont increase at all. But they jump almost 1500 rpm when the TCC unlocks.

Your TCC doesnt seem like it working properly. My truck feels like a manual trans equipped vehicle when teh TCC is locked.

To answer your question. At WOT my TCC doesnt lock in 3rd gear when teh selector is in OD. The stock tune forces a WOT TCC lock at 85mph in all the Vortec trucks. Keeping teh TCCulocked was worth a tenth improvement in teh 1/4 mile. Lighter high hp vehicles can benefit from locking teh TCC in the 1/4. My truck doenst have the power to power through a WOT 3rd gear TCC apply.

peace
Hog

Quote:

When my TCC is locked, I can apply quite a bit of throttle and the revs dont increase at all. But they jump almost 1500 rpm when the TCC unlocks.

Your TCC doesnt seem like it working properly. My truck feels like a manual trans equipped vehicle when teh TCC is locked.

To answer your question. At WOT my TCC doesnt lock in 3rd gear when teh selector is in OD. The stock tune forces a WOT TCC lock at 85mph in all the Vortec trucks. Keeping teh TCCulocked was worth a tenth improvement in teh 1/4 mile. Lighter high hp vehicles can benefit from locking teh TCC in the 1/4. My truck doenst have the power to power through a WOT 3rd gear TCC apply.

I should say it works fine 95% of the time....but it seems when I'm beating on it pretty good that's when the TCC slips. Other than that it works beautifully.

Hog wrote:

The reason for PWM is to have a small controlled amount of slippage, for smoother engagement and release.

Both the 1997 and the 1998 trans BOTH use a partial or controlled slippage strategy. The 1997 slips less than the 1998+ trans. IIRC the 1997 slips about 20-25 rpm and the 1998+ slips at about 50-75 rpm.
Both the 1997 and the 1998+ 4l60e transmissions DO NOT lock whatsoever in 2nd gear, they do lock in 3rd and 4th gear. I just went through a few Vortec 350 calibration files and discovered there is no commanded lockup in 2nd gear, only 3rd and 4th.


The 700r4 is the 1989 trucks(probably other years as well, but 1989 for sure) would lock the TCC in 2nd, 3rd and 4th.

I have a 1999 4l60e bolt on bellhousing trans and V6 torque converter in my 1997 reg cab shortbox Vortec 350 V8 that originally was equipped with a 1 pice cast in bellhousing. I have had this trans/T. Converter combo in my truck for over 2 years now with no issues.(knock on wood).

I would go with what James recommends, he knows his trans stuff. You can also add a vacuum modulator to allow line pressure to be controlled via vacuum instead of the PCM. I have read that the PCM cannot "keep up" to changing conditions as quickly as is needed. This is just what I have heard, I have no proof of this.

peace
Hog

http://www.sonnax.com/bulletins/tech/T3-JP-900.pdf <--- this link expired here is the new link below

http://www.sonnax.com/tech-articles/TS5-MS-076-081.pdf



here is the link to sonnax explaining the partially lockup from 2nd gear on with the new ec^3 lockup strategy....
I am still unsure as to how the newer pcm would act if it does not see the results of this newer ec^3 stuff
Robby



Last edited by stroker97k1500 on Tue Oct 07, 2008 6:50 pm; edited 1 time in total

Here is a link I found with some really good info on the 4l60e changes especially with the lock strategy, ect that I thought was interesting and wanted to share.

http://www.motor.com/MAGAZINE/Articles/062006_07.html <------ link expired the new link is below

http://www.motor.com/article.asp?article_ID=1039

Robby



Last edited by stroker97k1500 on Tue Oct 07, 2008 6:54 pm; edited 1 time in total

good read

Thanks for all of your information,
I think that I will try to get me a 4l80e trans and try to adapt it to my 4l60e transfer case since I just don't fully trust my 4l60e. It has let me down to many times even now with all upgraded hard parts and ALL of the sonnax upgrades using full synthetic mobil 1 atf. The converter is shuddering and won't lock into O.D after I [0-100] two times in a row. later when it cools down about 3or 4 miles down the road it will lock in again. This thing is a money pit for me and I am sure wouldn't improve its reliability with another rebuild especially after the 383 goes in.
Thanks,
Robby



Last edited by stroker97k1500 on Tue Oct 07, 2008 6:48 pm; edited 1 time in total

Install a 4l80e trans and be done with your transmission problems forever.

Just look at the power and weight James applies to his 4l80e trans.

Install the 4l80e trans, shorten driveshaft, run 2 wires to the trans for the extra VSS(vehicle speed sensor) that the 4l80e uses, tune PCM to control the 4l80e.

The 4l80e is a much better trans for high hp fullsize trucks.

peace
Hog

<--- Going 4L80E after wasting Thousands on 4L60E's.

I just made a wiring file to go from a 4l60e to a 4l80e trans. This swap only involves 5 wires. I have one file for 96-2000 GMT400 Vortec trucks using the BLACK PCM, and the other file is for 96-2000 GMT400 Vortec trucks that have converted to the 12200411 PCM. PM me your E-mail address if you want a copy.